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CurlingZone : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.6 CurlingZone > Chat Forums > Location Specific & Regional Tour Chat > Ontario Curling > Ontario Tankard & Scotties Entries
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Old Post 11-29-16 02:30PM
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Spanky
Hitting Paint

Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Grimsby, ON
Posts: 106

Ontario Tankard & Scotties Entries

Just released by the OCA today:

http://us10.campaign-archive2.com/h...7&id=5a22914e59

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Old Post 11-29-16 03:11PM
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outurn
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Nov 2003
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Wow Ontario competitive curling is dead!

52 Men's Teams and 30 Ladies Teams is all that has signed up to try and represent Ontario at the National Level. How very sad that our once vibrant competitive curling community has declined to this!

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Old Post 11-29-16 05:48PM
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biterbar
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I'm curious, how many historically signed up?

How many of the 50 men's or 30 women's have a chance?

__________________
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Old Post 11-29-16 09:49PM
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dugless_zone 13
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we used to have well over 200 men's teams sign up to play down.

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Old Post 11-30-16 07:33AM
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Netz
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Registered: Oct 2002
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I remember our club, a four sheeter, having 6 teams play to get out of the club.

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Old Post 11-30-16 09:17AM
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biterbar
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Re: Wow Ontario competitive curling is dead!

quote:
Originally posted by outurn
52 Men's Teams and 30 Ladies Teams is all that has signed up to try and represent Ontario at the National Level. How very sad that our once vibrant competitive curling community has declined to this!


Are curlers aging out and there aren't enough young guys to replace, or has the advent of super teams and "professional" curlers discouraged them from competing. A bit of both?

How is the next level, declining as well?

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"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill

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Old Post 11-30-16 10:02AM
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ngm
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Registered: Feb 2011
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quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
I'm curious, how many historically signed up?

How many of the 50 men's or 30 women's have a chance?



According to the folklore, a few hundred. What the folklore doesn't admit is that it was mostly the same 200 every year, year after year. And they don't admit that the same subset made it to provincials year after year. And if you look at the historical records over the decades, if your name wasn't: Savage, Werenich, Howard, Middaugh, then for you to win was a one-off and possibly a huge upset.

Now there are 50 on the men's side. I'd say 3 or 4 have a chance to actually play in the provincial final

It's pretty much the same thing in every adult sport, by the way. Soccer and hockey used to have huge numbers of men's teams play in their "playdowns", but no longer. People are just as happy to play their weekly league game or two and get on with life.

Of course every sport will have an internet forum bemoaning how the Ontario "Sport Name" Association is responsible of all its ills and what a shame it all is.

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Old Post 11-30-16 11:56AM
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Marc Bernard
Hitting Paint

Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Elmira
Posts: 165

From the OCA's Competition review (pdf here)

Men's Tankard

2015: 93
2014: 89
2013: 107

Women's Scotties

2015: 35
2014: 37
2013: 51

More alarming maybe are the Junior numbers from this year, compared to previous years.

Junior Men's

2016: 23
2015: 46
2014: 49
2013: 54

Junior Women's

2016: 24
2015: 39
2014: 48
2013: 51

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Old Post 11-30-16 01:25PM
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Skinz
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Ontario
Posts: 37

Is it possible that since teams now have to cover their hotels rooms for provincials that some teams have decided not to enter due to the extra finances needed to play provincials.

Before some teams would be happy just to reach provs, but now it is going to cost your team minimum $1500 in hotel rooms.

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Old Post 11-30-16 02:06PM
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Fanof42
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Registered: Jan 2016
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Good afternoon,

Thank you Marc for putting historical data. It is my opinion that such historical data should be interpreted in conjunction with other events within the competition paths.

1. How did setting up a club curler championship (The Dominion) in 2009 affect the trend in teams registering for the competitive stream.

2. The Junior (U21) data for this year has to be put in perspective because of the addition of the U18 national event (or maybe not since they had the Optimist before).

Thanks
Michel

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Old Post 11-30-16 02:09PM
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BurntheEdge
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Registered: Feb 2004
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Having worked on a provincial board( not ontario) and played "competative" the problem lies in that "super" teams or "elite" curling is sucking all the money to the top of the sport, this leaves less and less money for lower teams, but more importantly also leaves less money for actually keeping clubs open. I would say that the current model of curling in Canada will wipe the sport out within 20 more years, as the old timers that are keeping rural clubs open pass.

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Old Post 11-30-16 03:18PM
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Marc Bernard
Hitting Paint

Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Elmira
Posts: 165

quote:
Originally posted by Fanof42


2. The Junior (U21) data for this year has to be put in perspective because of the addition of the U18 national event (or maybe not since they had the Optimist before).




Certainly not as many U18s playing U21 this year, but there were a few. At least 4 of the women's teams and 6 of the men's were U18 (could be a couple more - I'm not as familiar with the Ottawa-area teams).

The other difference this year, besides having a National U18, is the new qualifier format. That may have discouraged some teams from playing.

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Old Post 12-01-16 03:38AM
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milobloom
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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: St. Albert
Posts: 817

There are a whole bunch of reasons for this, many of which I examined in an article for The Curling News last year (including a look at the numbers). The Ontario Grandmasters (over 70) had nearly as many teams last season as the Ontario mens.

I'm less inclined to blame "super teams" as there was always a gap between the top teams and everyone else. However, in years past the gap was smaller, teams were playing with similar conditions (now an average team competing in a provincial on arena ice has limited experience vs the top teams), and average teams could enter playdowns knowing they might get a crack at an elite team in the zone, heck even in their own club playdowns, but with byes now they would have to get to a semi-final in the province, and that's not likely for most.

Demographics are the biggest challenge, but also I believe the idea that "you have to go in playdowns" has dissipated. When I was growing up, it's just what you did, you entered playdowns, regardless of whether you were playing a lot that season or a little. Almost as an obligation. That sense has long disappeared for many of my generation (I'm 44) in many provinces and the next generation coming up doesn't have that sense of ritual that was passed down by my dad's generation.

Money, travel, tropical vacation alternatives, all contribute as well.

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Old Post 12-01-16 08:16AM
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Stumpy
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Ontario
Posts: 43

For years I have never understood the complaints about this. Here is how I view this topic: "Why don't more recreational level teams sign up to play the top curling teams?"

What's wrong with curlers playing in local events in or around their own club? Why should I feel obliged to travel to play top provincial teams, who will most certainly destroy me? (At a waste of my own dollar.) I do not expect sponsorships, I do not expect Curling Canada or the Ontario Curling Association to fund me, I am not an elite level curler and it would be a waste of their dollar to pay for me to enter tournaments, let alone hotel costs should I make provincials.

I'm quite happy to try to place well in my club, perhaps even win that championship, but for people to suggest it's "disappointing" or how I'm "obliged" to try to play in provincials makes no sense when it's my dollar on the line. I have a family and I have a job and I'm smart enough to realize those come first ahead of losing to top level curling teams. Just my rant on the topic.

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Old Post 12-01-16 11:49AM
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WrongHandle
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 67

The entry fee is also quite steep now at $360 vs $200 for other OCA events which could be a contributing factor in entries. It seems as though the goal is to attract only the serious teams which means shorter zone schedules and less pain for clubs having to give up some league time for the zone ice and little bar return. Teams like mine that always went in the zones religiously for years looked at the $360 and decided we could enter a spiel for that price and have a much better chance to win something or at the very least get well fed. If the goal of the changes is to drive teams on the margin away from the Tankard and toward other events or no events at all then it is working very well.

I believe there should be a subsidy to some degree for hotel rooms at provincial as a reward for getting there, even if it is not the full cost. Completely eliminating the hotel room coverage was a drastic change and not well received by the curlers.

Now we are paying more than ever, scheduling family life for up to three possible weekends away as usual, shelling out $1500 perhaps if you do make it to the provincials and playing provincials with little to no chance of making it to the Brier. For $360, we'll play in the Navan, Cornwall, Napanee or Tweed men's spiel, eat smoked meat sandwiches and giant steaks, watch a few bands and maybe take home an air compressor.

Does anyone know the breakdown of where the entry fees go if not to accommodations? Are the clubs re-imbursed for ice time?

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Old Post 12-01-16 12:41PM
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outurn
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Nov 2003
Location:
Posts: 26

quote:
Originally posted by Stumpy
For years I have never understood the complaints about this. Here is how I view this topic: "Why don't more recreational level teams sign up to play the top curling teams?"

What's wrong with curlers playing in local events in or around their own club? Why should I feel obliged to travel to play top provincial teams, who will most certainly destroy me? (At a waste of my own dollar.) I do not expect sponsorships, I do not expect Curling Canada or the Ontario Curling Association to fund me, I am not an elite level curler and it would be a waste of their dollar to pay for me to enter tournaments, let alone hotel costs should I make provincials.

I'm quite happy to try to place well in my club, perhaps even win that championship, but for people to suggest it's "disappointing" or how I'm "obliged" to try to play in provincials makes no sense when it's my dollar on the line. I have a family and I have a job and I'm smart enough to realize those come first ahead of losing to top level curling teams. Just my rant on the topic.



Okay you say you do not expect Curling Canada or the OCA to fund you. Well they expect you to fund them. The teams at the top are only able to do as well as they do, due to the generous funding from Curling Canada, The Olympic Funding etc. The only way that many events make sense financially is because there are a lot of volunteers not only volunteering their time, but also paying for the pleasure of doing so. Where is the next crop of top teams going to come from if there is no money being spent on the grass roots levels and above? Where do the fees go that curlers pay now they are no longer being spent on subsidizing the hotels at the provincials? I think the numbers are down so much because it has reached the point where curlers have said enough is enough!

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Old Post 12-02-16 09:02AM
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mikey
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Dec 2003
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Am I correct in interpreting the top 10 in CTRS get byes to the provincial qualifier (previously the Regions) so even though they are listed in the Qualifying round, they don/t have to play?

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Old Post 12-02-16 02:19PM
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UnattachedFC
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2016
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Posts: 96

quote:
Originally posted by mikey
Am I correct in interpreting the top 10 in CTRS get byes to the provincial qualifier (previously the Regions) so even though they are listed in the Qualifying round, they don/t have to play?


Yes, and no. The top 2 are getting byes to the Tankard. The next 8 get byes to the Provincial qualifiers. So, while those teams are listed, they could not have to play the first tournament.

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Old Post 12-03-16 12:31PM
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Stumpy
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Ontario
Posts: 43

quote:
Originally posted by outurn


Okay you say you do not expect Curling Canada or the OCA to fund you. Well they expect you to fund them. The teams at the top are only able to do as well as they do, due to the generous funding from Curling Canada, The Olympic Funding etc. The only way that many events make sense financially is because there are a lot of volunteers not only volunteering their time, but also paying for the pleasure of doing so. Where is the next crop of top teams going to come from if there is no money being spent on the grass roots levels and above? Where do the fees go that curlers pay now they are no longer being spent on subsidizing the hotels at the provincials? I think the numbers are down so much because it has reached the point where curlers have said enough is enough!



I appreciate your point but I couldn't disagree more. It is not my job as a strong-ish club curler to fund the OCA. If your true concern is grass roots (I don't think it is) the number of entrants to provincials playdowns should be the least of your concerns.

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